Christian Nationalists were among the insurrectionists on Jan. 6, but they were also among dozens of members of Congress who voted against certification. Mandisa Thomas of Black Nonbelievers tells us why her group is opposing Rep. James Clyburn’s proposal for a National Hymn. Then we speak with Sasha Sagan, daughter of Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan, about her book For Small Creatures Such As We: Rituals For Finding Meaning in Our Unlikely World.

Listen to the podcast here.